In this episode of The LandlordZONE podcast, Nigel Lewis and Paul Shamplina are joined by Theresa Wallace, Co-founder and Chair of The Lettings Industry Council and Compliance Director at Savills. With over 30 years’ experience, Theresa is one of the most influential voices in the private rented sector — championing higher standards and driving change across the industry. Together, they discuss the biggest challenges facing landlords and agents right now, including the Renters' Rights Bill, the future of Section 21 evictions, and how landlords can stay compliant. If you're a landlord or letting agent navigating the shifting rental market, this is one conversation you won't want to miss.
Podcast transcript
Nigel Lewis: Welcome to the LandlordZONE podcast. My name is Nigel Lewis. I'm Head of Content at LandlordZONE. I'm joined today by Paul Shamplina, who is the founder of Landlord Action. This podcast is all about exploring the major issues that are shaping the property industry and in particular the private rental sector.
In this episode of the LandlordZONE podcast, we are going to be talking with a major figure in the lettings industry and the private rented sector, and that is Theresa Wallace, who has 30 years’ experience of tackling the issues that many of you will be facing both in the future and have faced in the past. So, let's get rolling.
So, Theresa, welcome. And you are very well known for many, many reasons, but two principally. One, you work for Savills, which is a very well-known lettings agent or agency I should say. Also, you set up the Lettings Industry Council. Tell us a bit about why you did that and a bit about your background.
Theresa Wallace: OK, good morning.
Nigel Lewis: Good morning.
Theresa Wallace: Thank you very much for having me here. So, I started back in the last century in lettings back in the very early 90s, and I moved on and had my own business. And then I joined Savills early 2000, 2002, and so I've done every part of lettings from a property manager. I've done the accounts, I've done inventories, you name it, and I've done it. I've been a landlord and I've been a tenant. So I think I know the business quite well.
Nigel Lewis: Oh wow.
Theresa Wallace: And then through Savills, I progressed up and I was heading up customer services and compliance for about 10 years. And then moved, moved over and I was spending a lot of time doing my industry work because there's been so many changes and so much going on and I've really enjoyed that side of it. And then a couple of years ago, I got to the point where I didn't feel I was doing either side justice. Because there was so much to do, and so I needed to make a choice. And I was fortunate to be able to make the choice that I could step back from my day job and just concentrate on my industry work. And the company's been really good letting me do that.
Paul Shamplina: I was gonna ask you. So Savills were really, you know, happy for you to be able to set the lettings industry up.
Theresa Wallace: Yeah, they were very supportive. I don't think we realised at the time it would grow to quite how it's grown and where we've got to with it. But yes, they've been very supportive.
Nigel Lewis: So, if someone's going to say to you in a lift, give me a you know, give me a 15 second pitch. Sort of. What is the Lettings Industry Council for someone who doesn't know?
Theresa Wallace: OK, it’s a group of stakeholders from all corners of the industry. So you've got the professional bodies who govern us, you've got landlord associations, agents large and small, one man bands to large corporates. You've got the ombudsman schemes, the deposit schemes.
Paul Shamplina: And we're there, aren’t we?
Theresa Wallace: You are absolutely. But then we've also got government departments and the civil servants, and you've got the Ministry for Housing Communities and Local Government and the civil servants there. They are the people that are researching and advising the government and the housing minister, and that's where all of these changes are coming from.
Paul Shamplina: And that's a bit like a revolving door isn't.
Theresa Wallace: It is rather, it has been, for the last 20 years …
Nigel Lewis: We’re hoping Mr Pennycook sticks around for a bit longer
Theresa Wallace: We’re hoping, and I gather that is his intention.
So then we sort of we moved on and I think everybody in the Industry Council wants to wants to see the industry improve. We all want to see standards raised. We want to see minimum standards.
But it's also with all the legislation coming forward, it's the unintended consequences. If you don't work in this industry, you don't understand the knock-on effect that even some small changes can make. And I think that's what the Industry Council is doing. It's given me the opportunity to be invited into meetings with those civil servants, with the housing minister and to be able to speak about how it works on the ground and in practice.
Paul Shamplina: Yeah, I mean I know first hand because we go back years, don't we, Theresa from when you were in Propertymark, I came and did a talk in Kent, many, many, I can't remember what year that was it feels like donkeys years ago but I know the work that you've done, especially when I was involved and we commissioned that report ‘Beyond Section 21’, which we did in 2017/2018, at the time when just when the White Paper was coming out on the Renters (Reform) Bill before Covid, when no one realised that Covid was going to come and we commissioned a 70 page report, then basically saying what could happen with Section 21 but it’s all playing out now.
Theresa Wallace: Yes, yes, there was a lot of work that went into that. We've done a lot of papers actually over the last 10 years.
Paul Shamplina: A lot of work, but great work.
Nigel Lewis: Do you feel that looking at what we have now in the Renters’ Rights Bill, which is obviously Labour's version of the Renters Reform Bill, never made it into Act, did it… Do you feel that you have managed to persuade the powers that be at the ministry to consider some of the aspects of the well, the aspect of the industry's viewpoint, so to speak.
Theresa Wallace: It certainly isn't for the want of trying, and with the last government I felt we did. We were instrumentally making a few tweaks. It's very small changes that that you're going to get and we are still engaging at the moment. I have got concerns that they don't fully understand the impact that some of these changes are going to do. You know, they're really trying to help the right people, you know.
Paul Shamplina: Renters. Yeah
Theresa Wallace: We have no objection to what they're trying to do and I'm fully supportive, but I think the very people they're trying to help are going to be people that are going to suffer in some aspects.
Paul Shamplina: Yeah, I agree with you. We live and breathe it. We have. We've been in this game for so many years. A thing that I get frustrated with, and it's great that you're engaging and trying to change mind. And I've sat on lots of government panels and stuff. Is understanding the practicalities. That's where I feel that it falls down and I agree with you. I totally agree. I mean, you know, you have to pick your battles and it's very political. What would you say would be or has been, the Lettings Industry Council's biggest win with regard to changing government's mind or civil servants mind to actually get a win for our industry?
Theresa Wallace: Wow, there's been so many meetings and it's probably there's not a lot of pointing going back, but we we've just got this new consultation that's come out on energy efficiency now. I really feel like I'm on a merry go round because I did that with the last government. Went into the Business and Energy Department, had some really good meetings. And they actually started to understand that what they were proposing was going to be really difficult to achieve in the time that they were looking at doing it. And we got lots of people to reply to the consultation and actually, this wasn't the desired effect, because of course it didn't go anywhere because they realised how difficult it was. Now, of course it's coming back again and we're doing it all again.
I think I learned a big lesson with the Tenant Fees Act, and that was, there were certain people in the industry saying, look, you've just got to go along with it. You can't change it. And I think we backed down too much because I think there were consequences that came out of that that we probably could have had an impact on. But because of that I now keep going if I really believe that that something can be done about it, or at least that they need to listen. We're dealing with a lot of young people, with young civil servants, they're basing a lot of what they're doing, I think on their own personal experiences as tenants. And there's, you know, there is two sides, but that's not what you should be doing in an industry. You need to be making changes based on evidence.
And I think some of the evidence that's out there isn't necessarily being listened to either. I mean there was a report that was released last year which just concentrated on London, only on London, and it's the first time property has actually been followed over a period of time. And from April 2021 to December 23 in London 45,000 properties were sold that did not come back into the lettings market and 30% of those properties were properties at the lower end of the market. You know where you've got affordability issues. So, I know the housing Minister is saying that there is no evidence that we are losing landlords, but as an agent and I'm sure you see it for them, I know we're losing landlords who are selling.
Paul Shamplina: I know. I called it five years ago. I mean, obviously Section 24 was a major play and then obviously had the interest rates, but obviously from running Landlord Action for all these years and doing four or 5000 instructions a year, I felt so strongly about it. I went to my local, MP I said, we're gonna have a rental stock… I was calling it years ago, and of course I see the evidence because we get the instructions. The last year / 18 months, people are whacking in Section 21s. They need vacant possession. They want to sell. We're predominantly … before that it was rent arrears, antisocial behaviour or wanting to be rehoused by the council. And of course, you've got now what an average. Is it 16 or 21 applicants for one property?
Theresa Wallace: It was 21. I think it's 18.
Paul Shamplina: I remember in 2022 I was doing some training for Winkworths and had a whole room of agents and one guy from Clapham said he had 105 applicants looking for property. It's tough being a rental isn’t it?
Theresa Wallace: It is. And those landlords aren't selling to other landlords, which is something else that I think the Government think is happening. So think it's OK.
Nigel Lewis: Well, Labour must go that's great because but there's unintended consequences as you would call it earlier, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. They'll end up with fewer rental properties.
Theresa Wallace: That's our problem. We don't have enough stock, we need more social housing. Obviously that is the long term solution.
Nigel Lewis: If there was one aspect or maybe more aspects of the Renters’ Rights Bill that you have most concerns about or that you've been looking at the greatest for that reason. Obviously, Paul mentioned Section 21, but what would you identify as the big thing?
Theresa Wallace: There isn't just one …
Nigel Lewis: I know or more or more, yeah.
Theresa Wallace: I think one of the things and I know we're not going to get this, but one of the things I'd like to see is balance. Because tenants are going to be able to serve two months’ notice to be able to end a tenancy. And you know if they're in a property that really isn't fit for purpose, that's fine. But on the other side of the coin, if you have got tenants who move in, who never pay a penny more. They've got no intention of paying any more rent, Paul, you deal with them. I think in those situations and where you've got fraudulent tenants who have either, they've got the tenancy fraudulently but they are also using the tenancy for fraudulent purposes. I think landlords should have a fast track access to be able to get possession very quickly and that just doesn’t happen.
Nigel Lewis: Good point.
Paul Shamplina: It's and we talk about it all the time when we were involved with a company called Title Guardian that that spot subletting. The new norm. When I say this and I say this all the time and I said this on TV, the new norm, the new norm will be in the new world because of the courts and and the bailiff, you know delays the new norm will be landlords will have one year rent arrears. That's gonna be the norm. Like it or lump it, that's going to be the norm. And I get that. And of course, you know, we were going to have housing courts and the court shortage and stuff like that. It is a worry. It is a worry bearing in mind Section 8 now is going to be 28 days and three months. And don't forget some landlords will procrastinate and it might before they serve a notice it's four, five, six months. Then you have to wait for a hearing then you get a court order then you wait for eviction date.
Nigel Lewis: Well, so what's your view on the, we can call it a ban on rent in advance, which has been causing a stir. I think this week.
Theresa Wallace: And rent in advance. We've been talking about that because there seems to be this perception that landlords demand large rents in advance. In my experience it's a tenant offering to pay in advance and that's for all sorts of reasons.
When I was a tenant, I paid my rent a year in advance, I got 15% off of my rent, right? So that's one reason for doing it. But more importantly, it's the affordability side. You've got students, I think, need to be taken out and dealt with separately.
But students, particularly coming from abroad …
Paul Shamplina: Foreign students.
Theresa Wallace: Yeah, the universities need those students in order to keep going. They can't pass their references on affordability, and so they pay their rent in advance. They're not going to be allowed to do that. So I see that as a concern for landlords.
Paul Shamplina: And of course, there's the more vulnerable tenants as well, I think guarantors.
Theresa Wallace: The low income tenants who, for whatever reason can't prove their affordability, but they can afford to pay the rent, they're the ones that will be really penalised because if they can't pay their rent in advance and if they don't have a guarantor and lots of them don't, then how are they going to secure … their the people that I see going sort of underground to the dark side.
Paul Shamplina: I think you’re right. I mean, there's a really good company called Rent Guarantor that do the and I think landlords now in the new world will insist on a guarantor, a guarantor policy or rent guarantee, insurance. I think it's going to be really important, isn't it?
Theresa Wallace: I think rent guarantee and legal insurance is going to be huge, yeah.
Nigel Lewis: But to get rent guarantee as a landlord, the tenant has to pass referencing.
Theresa Wallace: Pass references.
Nigel Lewis: It's got to be.
Paul Shamplina: And then as an agent, your clients are landlords, presumably when Section 21 goes, we have periodic tenancies not fixed term tenancies just like what we said in that in that working paper beyond section 21 six years ago, landlords are going to be much more stringent on referencing aren’t they?
Theresa Wallace: That’s going to be key, they're referencing and qualifying applicants before they become tenants is going to be really important.
Nigel Lewis: I had a friend. It's the third group. A friend of mine, who moved from ownership into rental and which is sort of not his choice really, but nevertheless he went into the rented sector and he because he had, he'd owned his flat since he was 18. He couldn't. He had no record whatsoever paying rent and no references, had never had a landlord. And he said that he had to pay seven months’ rent up in advance.
Paul Shamplina: When that goes… Because don't forget. It’s like you've got a rental stock crisis. You've got all these tenants vying for properties. And then, of course, the the Joker is. Yeah, I can pay rent in advance to my landlord. We want landlords to sustain longer tenancies. It's do you know what I mean? It's like a melting pot, isn’t it?
Theresa Wallace: And then there is now, it's interesting to see that once the tenants actually moved in, if they choose to rent to pay lump sums in advance, they are allowed to do that instead. Once they've moved in. So from a landlord's perspective, that's great if, but you can't ask for it. But you'll get some students, for example, who want to pay their rent in advance because they might end up spending it if they're receiving it on a monthly basis. It suits them to like get my rent paid and not have to worry about that.
Nigel Lewis: Yeah, yeah, I've got. I know how much I’ve got for beer …
Theresa Wallace: Managing their finances.
Nigel Lewis: So, so, but do you get a feeling that if all of this goes through and there'll be maybe some amendments and negotiation before March? I think when we're expecting to go live, is that April, maybe, I don't know.
Theresa Wallace: I think it might be slightly later. It's got to get through the Lords.
Paul Shamplina: What is your time frame do you think?
Theresa Wallace: I mean, it's very difficult.
If they they break for Easter on the 6th of April, the House of Lords.
Nigel Lewis: Got to be before then
Theresa Wallace: I'm not sure it will get through before then because of the amendments and the discussions.
Paul Shamplina: And how many amendments are there, do you think?
Theresa Wallace: There's been quite a few that have been tabled. Lord Best has tabled quite a few, as has, I think, has Lord Truscott, there's quite a few on various aspects of the Bill. So if it doesn't get back to the Commons before the 6th of April, then it's after the 22nd
Theresa Wallace: Spring recess. So I think it will be back. But very soon after Easter, if not before, then ping pong. But of course, the Government have got such a large majority, they could just say.
Paul Shamplina: Whitewash it. Yeah, we're doing it
Theresa Wallace: But let's hope you know that there will be. There are stakeholder meetings starting next week with a small group from the industry with civil servants they've met with landlords, they've met with local authorities. They’re now, meeting with other stakeholders to talk about implementing the Bill and the, you know, the unintended consequences and the things that we're seeing that need some tweaking and need looking at. So I think that's a real positive. I think that would be that would be really helpful.
Nigel Lewis: Do you get a feeling that, in some areas it might already be the case, but do you get a feeling that in many or some areas of the Bill there will be a grace period? So…
Theresa Wallace: Yes, there will be he, the housing minister, has said that the two months that they mentioned at one stage completely sort of blew the industry because…
Nigel Lewis: Not very long.
Paul Shamplina: Too short?
Theresa Wallace: We can't, we cannot change all of our processes and our work flows and our communications. And then write and deliver training in two months. But what I think could happen is on day one, Section 21 will go.
Paul Shamplina: Yeah, I think so..
Theresa Wallace: There'll be no grace period, but I think you know, we might get three months.
Paul Shamplina: What about periodic tenancies and the abolishment of fixed terms? Will that go in line with the banning of Section 21?
Theresa Wallace: That I'm not sure. I just think section….
Paul Shamplina: Yeah, that's the headline.
Theresa Wallace: But of course if Section 21s go…
Paul Shamplina: Then you have to bring periodics in.
Theresa Wallace: Yeah, it is periodics, isn't it?
Nigel Lewis: Yeah, by default.
Theresa Wallace: And even if you've signed a fixed term, three months later it won't be a fixed term. So….
Paul Shamplina: So can I just ask you a question because I get asked is by letting agents and landlords, hypothetically, and we haven't got a crystal ball, but we know roughly where it's going. Landlord gives two-year tenancy today. Right. You have the ban coming in. You had the transitional period. Let's say hypothetically comes in first half, first October…
Theresa Wallace: 1st of October..
Paul Shamplina: 1st of April 1st of October comes in. Then that fixed term automatically will go into a periodic.
Theresa Wallace: Absolutely
Paul Shamplina: That’s what I thought, yeah. Yeah.
Theresa Wallace: Yeah, it's all happening on day one. There's no. There's no time allowed for the current fixed terms, which of course for tenants in fixed terms who wanted a fixed term for two or three…
Paul Shamplina: Yeah. Security
Theresa Wallace: But they will have security of 12 months from the start date of their tenancy. Whenever that started, the landlord won't be able to get a possession order until.
Paul Shamplina: I've got one question before Nigel asks another question. The grounds the grounds for Section 8. I've looked at them. I wasn't involved in the consultation. I don't think they're strong enough. That's my personal view. What's your view on that?
Theresa Wallace: I think the two grounds that will be used the most will be ground one and one A and I think 1 is for if a landlord wants to move into the property or a close family member and 1A is if they're going to sell it.
Paul Shamplina: Which is going to be a four month notice
Theresa Wallace: But not within that first 12 months, 8 months would be the earliest that.
Nigel Lewis: Does the clock start again after the year? So in effect it’s 16, or can you give notice before the end of the 12?
Theresa Wallace: You can give notice at 8 months so that your possession is at 12 months. However, you've then got this lockout period from that 12 months. Well, it is 16 months for letting. So from month 8, when your notice kicks in. If you then want to re let it and can't do it for 16 months. For sales, it's 12 months from the possession.
Paul Shamplina: The big worry I have is antisocial behaviour. We've talked about this many times before because obviously Section 21 has always been that back up because of course, trying to gain evidence at the moment you have to go underground.
Theresa Wallace: People are scared to give evidence
Paul Shamplina: People are scared to give evidence, that really worries me. I think there's been no change in that. I don't know what your view is on anti social behaviour ground?
Theresa Wallace: Well, there is a new ground, isn't there? And it does say that you don't have to wait. However, a judge can't do anything for 14 days. The what remains to be seen is how quickly will that get into court? That it's all down to the courts isn’t it.
Paul Shamplina: Yeah. Which is, which is a nightmare at the moment.
Nigel Lewis: So the, it has been said that your, the bit of the legislation or draft legislation that you’re keenest on is the, I think it's called a landlord database. I think it might be called something technically different, but let's call it a landlord database or landlord property database. I think we are accurate. What? Why are you? Why do you think that is a good idea? Do you think that's a good idea?
Theresa Wallace: I think it's a huge opportunity that can make a massive difference where we could actually really improve and get minimum standards in all rental properties. My concern is that it will just end up being a landlord register. They've now called it the PRS database. And I think when it's first launched, it will just be a register, but they are going to add on gas and electrical certificates and EPCs and other information and it's an opportunity. But there's so many different registers and things that seem to be going across all different parts. You know the high buildings as all sorts of, but everything's being done in silos. There's nothing bringing it all together.
Paul Shamplina: But you can't have a Big Bang on it though, because you know what government's like when it comes to tech. It's going to take ages, isn't it?
Theresa Wallace: It's going to take ages, but if they build it with the end in sight rather than building a register and then doing add ons.
Theresa Wallace: And it's an opportunity to, I think we need to digitise gas and electrical certificates, we need central registers, there's no registers for those which is crazy. And then it's very easy for landlords because that information can just all be pulled in, like when you, when you go on to tax your car, it tells you you've got your MOT, it tells you if you've got your insurance. The database should be built on the same principle.
Nigel Lewis: Which is what the log book operators are all keen on.
Theresa Wallace: Yes.
Paul Shamplina: You've been fighting a long time for that, haven’t you.
Theresa Wallace: I have!
Paul Shamplina: Well done.
Nigel Lewis: So we're there.
Theresa Wallace: Thank you.
Nigel Lewis: There you go. When we were asking about a win earlier. You can say that that was the win. That's the win.
Paul Shamplina: It’s perseverance. And you do really persevere, Theresa.
Theresa Wallace: I think one of the wins actually you asked about the Lettings Industry Council - when we had our first meeting, it was because of the Tenant Fee Act. We got a few people together because I felt it was a lone voice and nobody was listening, and we got a few people in the industry around the table and the biggest surprise. Well, there's one surprise that everybody turned up so easily.
Paul Shamplina: I think I came to that or the second one…
Theresa Wallace: I think you did.
Paul Shamplina: I can’t believe it was that long ago.
Theresa Wallace: But the biggest surprise was that was the first time that the three industry bodies who were, you know, our industry, professional bodies, had ever sat around a table together. That was a big surprise. I mean, it really has brought the industry together.
Paul Shamplina: You've definitely done that
Theresa Wallace: That’s made a big difference
Paul Shamplina: Well, and I must say it, you know, fair play to Savills, they've really got behind it and really given you support.
Theresa Wallace: They have
Paul Shamplina: And without their support, we wouldn't. You know, you wouldn't have been there so well, well done.
Nigel Lewis: So the last question to you is a more general one, but you know I'll just how you feel. But if there was one thing, if you had the magic wand of change, if you were the Merlin of the lettings industry, what would you? One thing that you would change?
Theresa Wallace: The court system.
Paul Shamplina: I'll back you on that.
Theresa Wallace: For both sides.
Nigel Lewis: So a dedicated housing court?
Theresa Wallace: A housing court would be amazing, but certainly the resource so that they've got the staff and they've got the money and they've got the bailiffs if needed to be able to deal with cases much quicker.
Nigel Lewis: Amazing.
Paul Shamplina: Yeah. I mean, there is at the moment in England and Wales, there's only 333 bailiffs.
Nigel Lewis: Wow.
Paul Shamplina: That's there lies the problem. And there's mortgage repossession hearings going through the roof. So yeah, I agree. I'd second that obviously.
Nigel Lewis: On that, we shall say thank you very much indeed to you, Theresa Wallace.
Theresa Wallace: Thank you very much
Paul Shamplina: Thank you so much for coming in.
Nigel Lewis: So we say thank you to Theresa Wallace. That was an amazing chat with her. I also say thank you to Paul Shamplina. I am and have been and remain Nigel Lewis, Head of Content at LandlordZONE. And please, if you've got a second go to the Total Property Knowledge Centre to go and find out more about these subjects and others that we have discussed today. And also visit LandlordZONE. Thank you very much and don't forget to subscribe to LandlordZONE for breaking news.
